At PAX Australia 2024, I was lucky enough to chat with Devolver Digital co-founder and Loch Ness believer Graeme Struthers. We had a bit of an informal chat, before I really dove into the questions I had to get answers from, including how Big Fan came to be.

Many thanks to Graeme for taking the time to speak with me during the chaos that was the show.

Maxi-Geek: So Big Fan, it was something that I was very curious about once it was revealed. So I wanted to ask you about how this came about?

Graeme S: So the within the Devolver group of companies, we have Good Shepherd, and I think we, if we're being honest, just was floundering. It was either being seen in some cases as like Devolver’s second label and that affected it, I think quite badly. Unfortunately the people saw it, it's not, it's those games were there and not in Devolvers because they weren't good enough. Why wouldn't Devolver publish those games was a question that they had to deal with quite often, and it's just it's just going nowhere.

So we just had a lot of chats internally, we've always said that Devolver doesn't really want to get any bigger in terms of output, the games could be bigger, but we don't want to do more because you can't. We've worked out you lose focus, you dilute and we'll be coming out to you a lot more, so maybe instead of four or five times you talk about a game now we're coming out 15 or 16 times

Maxi-Geek: Yeah, you're focusing more on a lower output but a quality output rather than just pumping output quantities.

Graeme S: Exactly, yeah and amongst all of that, within the Devolver side, we’d inadvertently done some licences. It was more to do with like, Nigel and Andrew, obsessive Monkey Island fans and Nigel just was like, set himself off on a mission to see if he could find a way to get everyone back together to do Monkey Island and that was working with Disney and getting the original development back together. We'd also through Nerial, we've done a Game of Thrones title and then we've also done another Game of Thrones project.

So we always seemed to be kind of like quite good at this in terms of matching up the actual indie game developer with the IP, and we got a lot of praise actually on Game of Thrones from the IP holder. So it just came about almost like organically we were just talking about what can you do, “We want another label”. But with this idea of being an indie game developer who wants to work on that IP rather than the IP's available, let's go and grab it and see if we can get something.

We worked with Mike Bithell on John Wick and I think Mike did a really interesting take on the John Wick IP, so that was kind of the genesis and then we found this guy that I used to work with years and years ago, called Lincoln Hershberger whose someone who is really, really great, I mean we were like ‘Lincoln, what are you doing?’ Because he just come out work, he was from Electronic Arts, he worked on Star Wars and Battlefield, really a whole bunch of really interesting IP.

So we kind of pitched him the idea to see how he would feel about maybe taking a leadership role in that and he was up for it. So we've been working on this more than a year and we announced a couple weeks ago that that there's already things, in the hopper, so to speak. Actually think we're gonna announce one of them maybe next week, week after (Ed – They have announced Tron Catalyst). But the inflow of interest we've had from developers has taken us by surprise, we had we already had some lined up, but we've been we've had quite a few people contacting us saying they would really like to work with us and have things they would like to do. So it’s exciting.

Maxi-Geek: Well, when I saw the announcement, and I was like, ‘oh yeah, IP published whatever, but the more I thought, the more I realised it's actually an interesting space because IP for video games, tends to be mega games like Star Wars, Marvel, DC, you know, with all the money and the big studios, or they fall into the kiddy bucket and that is nothing against Outright Games or Game Mill. So it's either big money, you know, years and years and years of development, large teams or focused on kids and there's very little in between that.

So when you guys sort of announced it, I sort of kept thinking in my head like this is actually interesting because you guys don't aim, you're not saying that this is a kids and this is the adult game. You just make the game and it finds its audience but there's countless comic properties that exist that could be a pretty good game, and you guys supporting indie studios to do it the way they want, it could be something really special.

Graeme S: I mean, I'm sure you're the same you sit down and start think there are things you'd like to imagine could reappear. I mean, Sony this year and their 30 year anniversary and so that provokes me going back to thinking about games that I played on PlayStation and it's like, I'd love to get all the Vagrant Story and be able to do something with that, I have tried, Square have been deaf to my overtures. Vib-Ribbon, another thing that I just loved when it came out. So there's a lot of games now that I think, Gaming IP that could potentially fit into this, as well as comics, TV, and film. But it's an interesting approach, I'm quite excited by the idea of ‘that developers always wanted to work on that IP’, of course, doesn't mean we can get it, but we feel that we've got a good chance because we can point to things we've already done like Monkey Island, like Game of Thrones and John Wick, like we I think we can be very proud of what we've done and we can say that these are not literal, I mean Monkey Island was of course as it was a game, but we weren't doing literal Game of Thrones takes, it was like this is a card battler game that was based on the IP and so, yeah, we'll see. But I'm pretty excited.

Maxi-Geek: I'm excited for it as well again, just because I think it's not about getting those big ones, but rather you're going to find those things that maybe people have forgotten about and we're seeing a resurgence lately with a lot of classic PS1 games. Like they just announced the Lunar Games are coming back and Legacy of Kain, so even some of those old games just getting the remaster treatment and thrown up on new platforms.

Graeme S: Yeah.

Maxi-Geek: Not saying do that

Graeme S: No, I think, that that we wouldn't be adding anything in that sense. That kind of HD or basically bringing back that game, I think that's what you can do and should do if you think that. We are more interested in what would an angle be, and we're in small industries so we know people in other developers and we're like, ‘we'd like to imagine doing something within your universe, but at this angle, adjacent to, rather than core to the IP.’

Maxi-Geek: Yeah, it’s one of those things, you have chats with mates anytime and there's always that whole ‘What if this studio made a game based on this?’ and that's essentially what you guys are doing now, is you're making that possible, which I think is great.

So obviously Big Fan being one, Good Shepherd's another one and Devolver.

Graeme S: I mean the the core of Good Shepherd is gone into Big Fan.

Maxi-Geek: Ok, yeah because you just rebranded the publisher of John wick to be Big Fan, so with Devolver and Big Fan, you've got two prongs, if you will is. Is there any desire to take anything you're doing in those spaces and into different mediums. So instead of just taking IP from comics or books into games, you want, looking at taking those games into comics or books.

Graeme S: I wish I was standing next to Nigel cause he knows much more about that. My feeling is, is that we get approached, like Massive Monster and Cult of the Lamb, so they've been approached by people who would like to imagine doing something like that in either comic book or animation. And we've had that in the past Gungeon, Hotline, Shadow Warrior and I get the impression that rarely leads to something actually happening, and I think that's because it's so hard for that side of the industry, the film and TV side to get that funding.

But we're very actively, I know with Massive Monster, there's a lot of conversations going on right now in that world for it, could it move into the world of book publishing, comics and animation. But Hotline, I mean that script has been hocked, there has been multiple attempts and obviously that's working with Dennaton Games, that they have to be happy with what's being proposed? But whether it ever happens…

Maxi-Geek: So you are open to it but not actively…

Graeme S: Yeah I mean that is not our business, we're a games publisher, but our job, one of the rules that we do to exists, is that we do have a responsibility to the game developer to try and make sure that every opportunities explored. And so you know, I'm sure you're aware we don't want IP, so it's not ours to go and play with, but we can help and where we can, we will.

Maxi-Geek: Fair enough, I mean that means there’s no Cult of the Lamb/Just Dance crossover coming soon. I can just see the lamb just bouncing on the screen and that's what people do for the for the action. The only other sort of question I had coming over here was like you mentioned things like Hotline Miami and all that. Obviously, game ratings are a big deal and in Australia they just brought in new rules, which are inverted.

So with ratings and content obviously being a big thing with trying to keep things approachable for a lot of audiences. Have you, as the publishers, had to step in at any time to a game developer and said, hey, this is probably not what you should be doing? Or do you sort of let them do what they want to do?

Graeme S: I mean as far as I'm aware, we've never stepped in, to any situation and said to the game developer, we'd like that content changed or removed. There's been conversations where, not recent ones, where it's like advising them and saying like Free Lives, making Genital Jousting, that has got no opportunity to end up on console, and it won't be able to stream that on Twitch.

So they're aware of that, they wanted to continue, we were very happy to publish the game and we had a lot of fun with it. So I think given the developers we work with, those relationships are so well defined that those conversations, if there was ever anything that was a risk this, then you'd have that conversation, but I don't see that in the developers a lot we work with.

With the more general thing about age ratings and what content can and cannot be included. We've always followed the rules, with Hotline Miami here, was basically we rebuilt the code, we basically we remastered the original code and ported it to the most up to date version of Unity and then we did Gen-9, we did PlayStation and Xbox. And then it got re-published and it was an oversight on our part, we shouldn’t have had it here, because we've forgotten completely, as they’d never been an issue, so when it popped, we're like Oh yeah, that's kind of on us.

Maxi-Geek: I do laugh at Hotline Miami, because I got it on Switch here when it was available for like an hour or whatever it was. So that's why I was just like curious about whole thing, because as the publisher, your name is essentially the one associated with the product.

Graeme S: Yeah we do try to make sure we are on the right side of all these rules and regulations, but that one was definitely an oversight. It was only an issue when we became aware when it popped, we're like oh.

Maxi-Geek: Awesome, anything that's coming up not, not trying to spoil all the things, but anything is coming up that you're excited for people to see. Is there something that's coming that you're like ‘This this one might be really good, people might really like this?’

Graeme S: Well, we've already announced a few things that are coming next year, but we've got a few things yet to reveal. So there is one of the studios, who we’ve been working with for quite a number of years and will be a nice new game early next year. So that's terribly vague, but yeah, that's the privilege of my job. And the other people at Devolver, we got to see these things and play them, talked about them, before they got revealed.

Maxi-Geek: Some might also see it as the curse of the job, but you can't now talk later publicly and be like I've played this, and you've gonna love it and here's why. Because you know, you can't talk about it yet.

Graeme S: Yeah, I'm always like every time I come to any events and Nigel, Andrew or Luke are aware that I'm going to be talking to press.

Maxi-Geek: So, you're basically the Tom Holland of Devolver.

Graeme S: I live in fear of saying something that gets me in trouble.

Maxi-Geek: That's fine, they can only yell at you once.

Graeme S: Yeah. Before I sign off, there is one thing, that we came down here a little bit early and one thing that really impressed us, and we go everywhere, we try to get across every big territory but VicScreen and how they've been approaching the Indie space, its worth of a huge amount of praise because we haven't seen anyone, any other governing body, in any other country, is doing as well. Yesterday we got to see a lot of the things that they've been curating and it was really impressive. The indie scene here is one of those vibrant now, certainly one that we're very excited to be a part of, so hat’s off to them.

Maxi-Geek: So maybe it’s a watch this space

Graeme S: Yeah.

Maxi-Geek: That was all I had, so thank you for taking the time to talk with me and enjoy the rest of the show.

Graeme S: Thank you

Many thanks to Graeme for taking the time during a busy PAX to talk with me. Devolver Digital have just released Neva and announced Tron Catalyst via Big Fan, but they have a lot already announced already for 2025, so the future is looking bright for the quirky publisher.